choils

[Lorien Arnold]

I've seen knives with no choil, with little choils and with huge choils. I've seen choils of various different shapes- semi circular, triangular and then there's the fancy Spanish variety.

To keep it straight, I see the choil as being the transition space between the edge and the ricasso.

What does a choil do, and how do you decide whether to make a knife using one or not? How do you decide the shape and type?

Do knife makers settle on one standard type, more or less, and is it an identification of his/her work, or is the decision random? Just do what feels right for any given design?

I've started making two knives, both of which have choils, and the third that is still being constructed in my head also has choils. And I don't know why I decided to have them, I just did. I want to understand where my decision came from.

Was mine a practical decision, or a stylistic one? Are most choils practical, or stylistic?

I've wondered about this like forever.

[StephanFowler]

for me it's essential geometry, sorta

If I want to make a 9" Bowie knife with a 1/4" thick stock and a flat grind I need to get the correct angle from one face of the bevel to the other.

I want the ricasso to match the width of my handle at the guard (flowing lines) which makes my ricasso at most 1.25" wide

if I don't make my blade wider than my ricasso I will have a 15 degree angle from bevel to bevel, however, if I make my blade 1.75" wide I now have a 9 degree angle from bevel to bevel. making a better cutting blade.

but now my blade is wider than my ricasso, somehow I need to mate the two together and have a good looking blade. thus the choil.

[Jon Brand]

I've wondered the same thing about choils. On a folding knife, I hate them. To my eye, the knife looks cheaper with a little choil and I know it can be tougher to sharpen a blade with out one. Cliff Parker makes very fine folders and I was thrilled a few years ago when he stopped with the choils. It makes the blade just flow right into the handle better in my eyes. I know that slipjoints and some other knives have them because it is the style thats been done for generations.

[Lorien Arnold]

Stephan, I'm a little embarrassed to say that I needed to read your post a few times to get it straight, but I totally pick up what you're putting down now:).

Do you figure you have a 'signature' sort of shape to the choil, Stephan, or a favourite way to do it? Is there a rationale behind the choice, or is it a looks good type of thing?

I see what you mean about a large knife with a wide blade necessarily having to transition to a narrower ricasso, but what about blades where the edges are in line somewhat with the handle? Like a hunter or a fighter type thing.

Going through David's books, I noticed that a lot of knives in the smaller sizes, blade-width wise, don't seem to have a choil. Loveless first comes to mind.

All things being equal, say you have two identical, tight tolerance, beautiful knives, and one has a choil and the other does not. Which would you, as a maker, choose? Why would you choose one over the other?

Not that the following two knives are identical;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/choil1.png

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/choil2.png

but I wouldn't kick either of them outta bed for eating crackers;)

I'm really looking for nuts and bolts stuff here. I don't want this to become all about collector's opinions, (no offense to those who've already contributed their ideas on the subject) but more about the gritty decisions that are made around the grinder, and how those decisions come about.

[Kevin Jones]

I'm not sure that "choil" or "no choil" is necessarily a decision that's usually considered when designing a knife but more often the result of the design decision to make the blade wider than the ricasso. Generally fighters, daggers and hunters where the blade/ricasso/handle are the same or very near the same width generally don't have choils by default.

Now a design decision is made in choosing how to treat/shape a choil or wider blade than ricasso transition. Choils can serve a worthy purpose such as a finger groove or to aid in blade sharpening when designed for such.

When commissioning a knife, I have often been asked by the maker or have specified how I want the choil shaped/made.

[StephanFowler]

I'm not sure that "choil" or "no choil" is necessarily a decision that's usually considered when designing a knife but more often the result of the design decision to make the blade wider than the ricasso. Generally fighters, daggers and hunters where the blade/ricasso/handle are the same or very near the same width generally don't have choils by default.

Now a design decision is made in choosing how to treat/shape a choil or wider blade than ricasso transition. Choils can serve a worthy purpose such as a finger groove or to aid in blade sharpening when designed for such.

When commissioning a knife, I have often been asked by the maker or have specified how I want the choil shaped/made.



Thanks Kevin, that explains my point much better than I did. :o:o



Lorien, I think you are referring to the small sharpening notch that has become popular with a lot of folding knives.

if the blade edge is in line with the ricasso I would almost always go with a NON notched blade


IMHO it's usually an unnecessary design element, when it's done for historical accuracy it doesn't bother me as much, but I'd still rather not have it

[StephanFowler]

Stephan, I'm a little embarrassed to say that I needed to read your post a few times to get it straight, but I totally pick up what you're putting down now:).

Do you figure you have a 'signature' sort of shape to the choil, Stephan, or a favourite way to do it? Is there a rationale behind the choice, or is it a looks good type of thing?





Early in my forging days my choil shape was mostly defined by grinding away until my horrible hammer marks were gone.

nowadays I can pretty well hammer it to about the shape I want, but I still tend to favor a gentle radius towards the cutting edge.

I "try" to avoid as mane straight lines in my knives possible

[Lorien Arnold]

Ed Fowler refers to this part of the knife as 'recessed ricasso' I assume on bigger knives.
I'm also hearing it referred to as a 'sharpening notch'.
This is just getting more confusing all the time.

[Jerry Manuel]

For me, its strickly for the look of the design . On my Hawthorne Bowie, it just wouldn't look right without a choil, IMO . On the other hand a choil on my Loveless would ruin the design -

[Lorien Arnold]

it would be really great to hear some more knife makers' thoughts on choils/sharpening notches/recessed ricassos and the like.

I know some of you knifemaking guys are members here, so please share your wisdom:)

[Lorien Arnold]

I thought a question about one of the more enigmatic design considerations of making a knife would have elicited more of a response from those who make these things. Perhaps I didn't word my question well. At any rate, this thread has been mostly a disappointment.

Thank you, Stephan, for sharing your thoughts.

[Kevin Jones]

I thought a question about one of the more enigmatic design considerations of making a knife would have elicited more of a response from those who make these things. Perhaps I didn't word my question well. At any rate, this thread has been mostly a disappointment.

Thank you, Stephan, for sharing your thoughts.

Makers please feel free to comment/interact on our forum.
This will result in positive, interesting and productive discussion.

[Harry Mathews]

I don't generally like to use choils on my knives. Maybe for looks on some Bowie knives, but for hunting knives or utility knives I would rather leave them off and use a shorter recasso. If they aren't there they won't hang up on something you are trying to cut.

I have never understood the "sharpening" aspect of the choil and suspect that many times the notch is used to disguise an edge that is not in the middle of the blade. It is obvious if there is no choil but less so if there is. :cool:

I have also found that the reason you have to choke up on a knife is because the hand is too far from the edge to control it. The long recasso which allows you to choke up is also what puts your hand too far from the edge. Any finger in front of the guard is subject to be cut. I have owned some knives with a long recasso and they felt awkward in use. Some of these knives were advertised as having a long recasso so you could choke up on the blade. Go figure that one out. If the knife is too big for the job, take out your smaller one. Nobody carries only one knife do they?:D


I don't have a "burn on" about choils one way or the other. I know that some people do and they can buy whatever they like or make'm the way they want. I will use one if it fits the design and use I think the knife will be put to, but most of our knives won't have one.

You won't see a choil like this on a Twin Blades knife.

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL782/4063224/8450343/379531494.jpg

But you might see one like this. Tricky plunge cut too.
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL782/4063224/8450343/379531495.jpg

[Lorien Arnold]

I have never understood the "sharpening" aspect of the choil and suspect that many times the notch is used to disguise an edge that is not in the middle of the blade. It is obvious if there is no choil but less so if there is. :cool:

I have also found that the reason you have to choke up on a knife is because the hand is too far from the edge to control it. The long recasso which allows you to choke up is also what puts your hand too far from the edge. Any finger in front of the guard is subject to be cut. I have owned some knives with a long recasso and they felt awkward in use. Some of these knives were advertised as having a long recasso so you could choke up on the blade. Go figure that one out. If the knife is too big for the job, take out your smaller one. Nobody carries only one knife do they?:D


Harry- Thank you:) That's exactly the kind of information I was asking for.

Are choils some kind of 'hot topic' in the cutlery biz? I haven't been around long enough to know, one way or the other. Would that be why some are hesitant to share their opinion or rationale for doing things the way they do them?

It just seems so random to me. I mean, I see Ron Lake and Michael Walker for example, who have collaborated on knives and who are both at the top of their field, and one uses a choil while the other doesn't:confused:

Your point, Harry, about a choil hiding an imperfectly balanced blade is something I've suspected but never heard anyone mention. I find that to be a very interesting thing. The paradoxical situation of building a choil for 'choking up' while having little edge control in general is not something I've thought of.

By the way Harry, your and Charlie's carved knives are just beautiful. I like the 'raw, unfinished' pictures too.

[Kevin Jones]

Thanks Stephan and Harry for stepping up and giving your opinion.

Any other makers want to add? Any other opinions on sharpening groves and
the "choke hold choil"?
Hun, say that fast; "choke hold choil". ;):D

[Harry Mathews]

I just thought I would try to stir things up a little for you Loren. :cool:

There are two basic types of choils to me being used on knives. The first is the dropped edge seen often on Bowie knives that creates a choil and then the second would be the little gap between the edge and the bottom of the recasso that I showed in my first picture. They are different in creation and I suspect in function. I understand Stephen's explanation of the forged choil and do it myself. I don't understand the little ground one at the end of the edge even though many makers use it.

I have used knives with and without choils and have found the ones with choils sometimes get hung up when cutting. It is more of an inconvenience to me than anything else and I prefer not to have one on a knife I'm going to be using. Like I said some knives look better with one rather than without one.

While I don't really think many experienced makers use choils to hide a bad edge location, it is obvious when there is no choil that the edge is in the center of the blade. If there is a choil I always wonder until I look. I have never found a reason to put a choil on a knife like the little one I showed above and yet I have what I believe to be good reasons not to put one there. The one I showed is on a Dick Gillenwater knife that is about as close to perfect as you could ask for it to be. He didn't need to worry about the edge being in the center of the blade and I guarantee that never entered his mind. I just don't know why it is there other than for looks.

[StephanFowler]

I just don't know why it is there other than for looks.

I suspect that like many things it is there because it has always been there and his customers expect it to be there, and would possibly be miffed if it wasn't there

[Don Hanson]

Lorien, I guess the reason I haven't commented, is because I've always thought a choil is the part of the blade behind the cuttin edge. Notch or no notch, dropped edge or not. I may be wrong here. I do the notch thing on some slip joints but not on fixed blades. I can take em, or leave em :)

[Jon Brand]

For a regular guy sharpening a folder, does the notch help keep the job clean?

[Lorien Arnold]

a choil is the part of the blade behind the cuttin edge.

I do the notch thing on some slip joints but not on fixed blades. I can take em, or leave em :)

Don- thank you:). Describing what exactly you feel a 'choil' is helps a guy understand them better. They mystify me, and your description I think captures the thing I'm asking about best.

I looked up 'choil' on wickipedia;

A choil, where the blade is unsharpened and possibly indented as it meets the handle, may be used to prevent scratches to the handle when sharpening or as a forward-finger grip

I like Don's description better:D

As for the second sentence I quoted there, Don, why is that? Why do slipjoints have that little indent, while the fixed blades not? Is lateral strength an issue, is there an historical thing going on? I'm sure there are many other reasons, but I don't know what they are. Which is why I started the thread in the first place:)

Such a weird thing, this choil business:confused:

[Don Hanson]

Lorien, the reason I do the notch on slip joints, is tradition, most all the old slips had them. A slip joint also has a kick, that bit of tang that hangs down below the edge, just seems right to separate the edge from the kick. And they just look good on a traditional slip joint. I don't really understand them either :cool:

[Don Hanson]

For a regular guy sharpening a folder, does the notch help keep the job clean?
Jon, I think it helps while sharpening a small thin blade.

[Lorien Arnold]

I don't really understand them either :cool:

Guess I'm in good company!

[Kevin Jones]

What about Spanish Notches? Do you like them?
I like very much examples which are well done on certain knives.
I consider Tim Hancock A "Master" of the "Spanish Notch".


http://www.fototime.com/0D13BCFB2FA37F2/orig.jpg (http://www.fototime.com/4EA1B4CA7A2FACC/orig.jpg)

Want the LARGE file to see closely? Click on the image.

Coop did a great job in bringing us these examples.

[StephanFowler]

What about Spanish Notches? Do you like them?
I like very much examples which are well done on certain knives.
I consider Tim Hancock A "Master" of the "Spanish Notch".




Want the LARGE file to see closely? Click on the image.

Coop did a great job in bringing us these examples.

I usually consider them to be out of place and "odd" on knives like bowies and hunters and the like.

but on a Mediterranean style dirk or a indo-persian style they can be VERY tasteful

[burton harruff]

For me a recessed ricasso is a place of transition. Transition from the cutting edge to the guard or handle. I also want the bottom of the ricasso to flow evenly into the handle. The attached picture shows what I am talking about. If this knife didn't have a "pinched" ricasso then either the blade would have to be much skinnier or the handle would have to be much beefier. Either of these adjustments would lead to a knife that would not flow and would be be out of proportion at least to my eye. -Burton

[Lorien Arnold]

I was looking through David Darom's book on Fixed Blades and I noticed in the Jim Ence section, a page with about 8 knives on it. Some of them had choils, others did not. Even knives of the exact same design differed in this regard.
:confused:

A recessed ricasso and a Spanish notch is sort of a choil, but for the sake of this discussion, the following pictures simplifies my terms a little;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/ankrom.png

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/ankrom1a.png

Coop- I hope you don't mind my borrowing these beautiful images from your thread on BF

[Kevin Jones]

I guess the areas on the above knives may technically be called choils, however they are what I would refer to as "sharpening notches". In that the little notch offers a break to keep your sharpening device from butting up to and scaring up the ricasso area.

[Lorien Arnold]

thanks, I'm starting to get it now- I think!:D

[Lin Rhea]

Yall excuse me if I go about this backward. But I dont think of the ricasso as pinched. In my view the ricasso is the baseline for the whole knife. Everything else references off of it. Also, most of the time, a maker will try to keep his ricasso and handle height the same. To me, this is a set size for hand comfort and wont change much from knife to knife of a given type. For instance I have a target size I meet when forging and can refine that during the grinding and will end up with what I think is best for me. Most of my bowies will be within a small fraction of each other in that spot.

A choil gives the maker more choices in blade to handle angle. Typically, a blade with no choil will have these choices, straight off the choil parallel, narrowing, or widening. An example of widening is Lorien's blade in the drawing in the other thread.

The choil merely gives the maker room to play with the blade to handle angles. As Stephan said, he flat grinds and a choil will allow him to get a tighter angle of grind. Not quite as tight as hollow, but tighter. A choil is a flat grinders friend. I like to have a choil on my choppers because it allows me to get a broader blade, not for weight so much as area. This has good affects on the balance and stability of a knife in swing as well.

I forge and grind the way I like and there is so many ways to skin this cat. I just use a choil as a tool to transition from ricasso to cutting edge. Lin

[Terry L. Vandeventer]

Good points Lin. As far as this thread goes, I may have missed something but here goes. I have always considered the choil to be the dropped edge anterior to the ricasso. It is an artifact of the forging process. If you forge your bevels into the knife, the metal will widen in a downward progression, forming the choil. It has to go somewhere and that's where a bladesmith directs it. It is a beautiful transition and I make every effort to make the choils on my blades drop straight down in front of the ricasso in line with the plunge cuts. It's a touchy area to be hammering and with just one bad lick you get...well, time for a Spanish notch! I've heard Ed Fowler say that he despises the dropped choil on his forged blades and simply grinds it off all of his knives.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh91/tvandeventer/knives/Bowiewithblackpearlcoloreddamasc-1.jpg

This Jim Cooper photo illustrates a choil that I was personally very pleased with.

Cheers,

TV

Terry L. Vandeventer
ABS MS

[Lorien Arnold]

It is an artifact of the forging process. If you forge your bevels into the knife, the metal will widen in a downward progression, forming the choil. It has to go somewhere and that's where a bladesmith directs it.


Thank you for that Terry. Brass tacks, nuts and bolts info- that's what I was hoping for. Wonderful photos there as well, and a beautiful knife you have there, I can understand your pride:)

Lin, thank you as well for you explanation as well. I feel that your understanding is vast and deep.
I'd like to hear more about your views on the stability of a blade and how its breadth effects its slicing efficiency. Don't wanna go too off on a tangent about it in this increasingly interesting thread, but what you've told me so far still hasn't totally soaked in and maybe we should get another thread going about that. That's some cool stuff.

[Karl B. Andersen]

...I have always considered the choil to be the dropped edge anterior to the ricasso. It is an artifact of the forging process. If you forge your bevels into the knife, the metal will widen in a downward progression, forming the choil.....I've heard Ed Fowler say that he despises the dropped choil on his forged blades and simply grinds it off all of his knives.
Terry L. Vandeventer
ABS MS

Well, here goes from me, as well.
A maker can certainly do all kinds of "FORGING" and not have ANY dropped edge, at all!
This one from me was forged down from steel that started 1" thick, so I can assure you it was forged with NO dropped edge "artifact" of forging!
Ed doesn't grind anything off of his knives, and neither do I, when I forge this style of blade.
He doesn't necessarily despise the dropped edge, he just doesn't see any use for it. It's certainly a debatable topic. I like them both.
The reason for the "artifact" of the dropped edge is that so many makers simply forge from bar stock, that begins at nearly the same thickness as the end-result blade.
If a maker forges from large stock, you will certainly have a "forged" blade whether or not you want a dropped edge. And if, as a buyer, you truly feel you get more money out of a truly "forged" blade, having a dropped edge is NOT proof of a lot of forging.
A maker can simply do a little stock removal of the choil and he's good!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/kbaknife/Knives%2010/WIH8-1.jpg

[Lorien Arnold]

Karl, you bring up and interesting point to me, and thank you for adding to this discussion.:)

I've seen a number of knives out there, ground straight from stock, which have a recessed ricasso/dropped edge.

To me, especially given the 'forging artifact' theory, this is especially meaningful as it appears that the forged blade is gaining more prominence- which is a good thing imo.

However, if this design feature doesn't add to the utility of the knife, then it seems like a stylistic choice, and I'm very skeptical about those kinds of choices, being pragmatic as I am.

Which brings us back to the beginning. I think that it might be fair to say that choils, (unless specifically designed to aid sharpening, or as an additional finger hold) are a stylistic choice that could be phased out easily enough if they go out of favor with enough consumers/collectors.

I didn't start this thread thinking about 'recessed ricassos' or 'dropped edges'. I was more interested in those little choils you often see on smaller knives. However, as this idea search blossoms, I am realizing more and more the significance of the aforementioned design features on larger knives, and how this trend is rippling across the knife industry.

[Karl B. Andersen]

I certainly haven't lost any favor of the recessed choil, and on some knives it looks quite stylistic - to use your term - and may frequently offer an easier sharpening choice and appearance balance.
But I can tell you this right now, I will soon go back to making more and more of the Hunters, similar to the above, that I made in years passed.

[Don Hanson]

Now, what is a choil?

Lorien, they will not go out of style because every knife where the edge doesn't go all the way to the guard or handle has one. You know, that space between edge and guard. :)

I like it all, but on a large knife, I really prefer a dropped edge. Hunters, I can go either way.

[Lorien Arnold]

Now, what is a choil?

Lorien, they will not go out of style because every knife where the edge doesn't go all the way to the guard or handle has one. You know, that space between edge and guard. :)


oh my.
:)
I better go and pour a cup of coffee now...

[Terry L. Vandeventer]

Karl,

The good thing about forging hot steel is that you can be versitile. If you don't want the dropped choil, then forge it out or grind it away. As bladesmiths, we have the skills do that.

You really seemed to really take issue with what I said. In my post I stated that I had heard Ed Fowler say certain things. You pretty much said that this was untrue and therefore I am wrong.

Well, perhaps you know Ed better than I, but many years ago at the Blade Show he looked me in the eye and stated that he ground off the edge to meet the bottom of the riccaso. That he "despised" the dropped edge (his very words) and went on further to call it an "abortion" and "an accident waiting to happen." This was during a class he was teaching on the design of the working knife and twenty other guys heard it as well. He drew a picture of a knife on the board illustrating the dropped edge. Then with a flourish he drew a line through it, eliminating the choil. Later at his table, he brought it up again.

So maybe he does things differently these days. Perhaps he mispoke or twenty guys misheard, but you do not know what has passed from Ed Fowler's ear to mine.

Sorry that this has gotten off topic guys. My appologies.

Cheers,

TV


Terry L. Vandeventer
ABS MS

[Karl B. Andersen]

Karl,

The good thing about forging hot steel is that you can be versitile. If you don't want the dropped choil, then forge it out or grind it away. As bladesmiths, we have the skills do that.

You really seemed to really take issue with what I said. In my post I stated that I had heard Ed Fowler say certain things. You pretty much said that this was untrue and therefore I am wrong.

Well, perhaps you know Ed better than I, but many years ago at the Blade Show he looked me in the eye and stated that he ground off the edge to meet the bottom of the riccaso. That he "despised" the dropped edge (his very words) and went on further to call it an "abortion" and "an accident waiting to happen." This was during a class he was teaching on the design of the working knife and twenty other guys heard it as well. He drew a picture of a knife on the board illustrating the dropped edge. Then with a flourish he drew a line through it, eliminating the choil. Later at his table, he brought it up again.

So maybe he does things differently these days. Perhaps he mispoke or twenty guys misheard, but you do not know what has passed from Ed Fowler's ear to mine.

Sorry that this has gotten off topic guys. My appologies.

Cheers,

TV


Terry L. Vandeventer
ABS MS

Gee, Terry, don't get mad at me.
I didn't take exception to anything. He just doesn't forge it out that way and then grind it off. I learned his "style" in '05, so I can't say what happened before then and don't pretend to.
If knives were cats we'd be skinin' 'em all day - wouldn't we?

[Russ Andrews]

On a pocket knife, I favor the small notch, just ahead of the ricasso
because it makes sharpening easer, which also leaves that part looking
neater.
On a small hunter, I favor the edge protruding at least a little, also
because it makes sharpening easier, and aids in preventing the stone from
scratching the bottom of the plunge cut....most folks who pay our
prices try to keep their blades looking decent.....Also, if there's no
choil or dropped edge, then after many times at the stone, the edge
starts to move back and the ricasso is wider than the rest of the blade.
That may happen sooner or later anyhow, but I'd prefer it later.

On Bowies and most other large knives, it usually just looks alot better
if the beveled portion of the blade is wider than the ricasso. Over on the
Antique thread, on this forum, there are some bowies that have the
ricasso as wide as the rest of the blade, and much wider than the grip.
That was customary for that style and time, but I don't see much
grace in it.

On some designs, like a chute knife, where the guard must go on
from the tip end, having a bevel wider than the ricasso just won't
work...youd have a gap at the lower end of the guard slot. The best
way then would be to have a notch at the low end of the plunge cut.
That could be done neatly,but would seem out of place to me.

Russ