Miscellaneous sketchings

[Lorien Arnold]

if you didn't notice, I like to spend quality time with my sketch pad and a pencil. Actually, I probably spend as much time with my eraser...:D

Anyway, whaddaya think?

[David Darom]

http://www.fototime.com/{7B33C80A-2BEC-442D-94CE-000DE93BCD0D}/origpict/baker.jpg

Lorien, I like the bold design and wild grindings on the set
of three knives on this page....

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

[Lorien Arnold]

Thanks again for the photo 'correctifying', David!:D
I was going to try and balance the pictures out myself, but I just have zero time these days. I'm sooo busy!

The first picture I posted there; the heavily outlined knife, is actually probably going to get made.
I'm sending the pattern to Bryan Baker of Idaho and he feels that it will be no problem to build to spec.
There was a size parameter of 1 1/2" x 12", I wanted this to work out so that he wouldn't have to buy the material, and instead use what he has on hand.
I've been wanting a compact trail knife designed for efficient trail clearing but nice and light, for packless mini hikes. The material will be 3/16" ATS34, stainless guard and pins and micarta slabs.

I bought a knife from him awhile ago that is all around clean as a whistle, beautifully made, he's definitely got excellent skills, (works for the Reeves) but due to a tiny amount of flux caught under the guard is going to have problems down the road.

I offered to send it back to him for credit toward making a knife of my own design. Any hunter would be happy to have the knife I'll be returning to him, just not a snobby collector such as myself:D.

At any rate, he's a top notch kind of guy and builds an excellent quality knife using excellent materials for a very low price.

David, I'm glad you like that triumvirate. That design was a response to a thread started on BF regarding a 'chopper design contest' where the only parameter was the material size of 3" x 12". I think the 'contest' was simply a method by which the OP could 'borrow' designs from people, but that's only my suspicion;) At any rate, I am very happy with these patterns and am on the lookout for a 3" x 12" plate of steel so I can make them myself:)

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/khuk.jpg

[Lorien Arnold]

well, I've sent a few off to a couple of different makers to see if they'd like to use them.
And here's a few more;

[Lorien Arnold]

and some more...

these first two are sketches for a dagger blank that Raymond Richard sent to me. I still haven't decided how to proceed with this project, but I'm workin on it.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a409/Bladeworks27/IMG_3668-1.jpg

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a409/Bladeworks27/IMG_3669-1.jpg

[Lorien Arnold]

These ones are quite new.


This is the first 'fanciful' knife I've drawn up in awhile. In my mind's eye, I see a white or green jade handle, polished and blued mild steel guard and ferrule, blackened bronze collar, and either polished and blued blade or high contrast damascus with shapes complementary to the lines of the knife.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a409/Bladeworks27/IMG_3656.jpg

This is an integral design inspired by the work of Wolfgang Loerchner, with polished and satin finished areas.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a409/Bladeworks27/IMG_3655.jpg

[Lin Rhea]

Lorien,
I see a lot of improvement in your "eye" for design and how it relates to the knife's flow and ergonomics. You have some very interesting and workable ideas. What's more impressive is your ability to communicate these through your drawings.
I would love to see Wolfgang's talent applied to your design. That would be so nice. Lin

[Lorien Arnold]

I already responded to your post Lin. I don't know where it went, this is the second time one of my posts went missing:confused:. Server must have been napping...

Anyway, I basically said 'thank you' for your encouragement, and that I'm flattered:)

[Lorien Arnold]

Oh, and I also went and emailed that design to Wolfgang and I really hope he gives me a critique of it. It's a lot to ask from one of the best knife makers in the world, but he has been really helpful already. I hope I didn't impose though:o


***

I talked with a friend today who runs his own cnc/cad shop and he does lots of custom gun work. His dad makes knives so he knows what's up. He offered to cut out some blanks for me with his machine and I think I'm going to take him up on that offer.
I've been kind of getting my work shop in order and the next step is to build a vice bench, and then get a vice to put on it. Then I'll get my blanks of O1 and my set of files and start hoggin away.
I'm getting pretty excited about all this actually:)

I certainly have enough good/ok designs to get started anyway.

[Lorien Arnold]

I see that there are folks checking out this thread, and I just wanted to reiterate that the reason I've posted these drawings is to get honest straightforward feedback on them before I get started on building them.

Also, I have now got something like a proper work shop almost set up, and I'd like to hear which design you folks like the most and maybe that's the one I'll get started on first:).

[Lorien Arnold]

which two? hehe.

[Bob Betzner]

Lorien, I have been admiring your sketching ever since you started these. You get better and better, too. I really like the two directly above this post very much.

Best,

Bob

ps: with some touches of textured bronze, ala David Broadwell

[Lorien Arnold]

thank you very much, sir!
the one with the habaki I was thinking of textured bronze. Not sure what kind of texture there, but I was thinking the guard would look cool if it had a kind of hammer tone and was then polished and blued.
Bronze fittings might call for either a stone handle, of white or green jade perhaps, or an ancient ivory of some type with mostly creamy tones and with a little brown and black maybe.
In my mind's eye, I see a blued, mirror polished blade.

[Lorien Arnold]

I ordered a 15" x 2" piece of S30V in .224 from AKS, and I think that I will build this design, (maybe with some tweaks, since I just drew it up last night) from that material.
There are a couple of little knives as well, that I also ordered steel for. Now that I have a vise at home, I can actually start producing some stuff.
I have a little dagger in the works which I've been intending to build for the past year and a bit. I've just about gotten the taper filed, and soon I will be ready to start cutting it to the profile.

Very exciting stuff, this knife making!:):):)

[Lorien Arnold]

I haven't been getting as much of the kind of action that I wanted from these threads, ie; constructive criticism and dialogue, but I noticed that there are a lot of visits occurring.

Now, I'm not a paranoid person, but I'm feeling a little concerned that there may be some who might view these threads and decide that maybe they'd like to reproduce my designs, specifically for off shore production perhaps, or something like that. It's not CKCA members, but all the unregistered guests I've been seeing around these parts, that cause for me this concern.

That might sound a little arrogant in that I might be over valuing my patterns and time spent drawing them up, but they are mine and unless asked, I don't want to share them freely with someone who might reproduce them without permission and who might be more interested in making money than doing the right thing.

So, sorry, but I'm gonna pretty much stop doing these particular threads. Hopefully I will replace them with pictures of actual knives that I will be making at some point in the future.

I really appreciate those of you who've contributed your thoughts on these designs and who have helped me to get better at this particular aspect of knife making.

And remember, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!:)

[Bob Betzner]

Personally, I like the drawings. I think there are people who don't respond to your thread in writing, Lorien, but do respond to your drawings - as I do. If I were you, I would just continue to scribe your thoughts into words and pictures, for us all to see.

We still love ya, LOL!

Best,

Bob

[Lin Rhea]

Lorien,
I'm with Bob. I like the drawings and as we spoke yesterday, I think a few of them are quite doable. One that I really like is the competition style camp knife. I am very impressed with it.

I would not worry too much about people copying your designs. If that is the case, all of us who regularly show photos are vulnerable too. I'm sure it happens, but most unscrupulous people are also lazy. Besides, we will know your designs. If you feel better not showing them, I certainly understand, but you would be surprised at the people who you are helping. Lin

[Jerry Manuel]

Keep em coming Lorien - Jerry

[jerry fisk]

Lorien, it is good to watch someone to grow with what they do. Only by showing and getting good feed back do you grow in this business. Keep it up, you are doing well. Remember for those that might take from you ideas with your drawings, keep in mind, if they were bad ideas they would not take them.

[Lorien Arnold]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3798.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/choppaandedcs.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/hugefighta.jpg

:o
the idea that these sketches are somehow helping other people is very humbling and encouraging.
Your encouragement guys, has a much larger affect than I can say.
But I will say thank you.
And I will keep them coming:)

[Lorien Arnold]

I must have absorbed Lin's subhilt handle design into my psyche, because I drew this freehand and now see how similar it looks to Lin's;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3960-1.jpg

The bottom is a kitchen knife design, and I'd really like to make it for our kitchen. See how it works. Kitchen knives have a lot of potential.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3959-1.jpg

The two are drawn around my two remaining scraps of 1084. Waste not, want not!

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3962-1.jpg

this is the original comp cutter design I was playing with;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3870.jpg

and after a conversation with Lin, it has evolved into this;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3958-1.jpg

further refinement based on Lin and Jerry's suggestions;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3964-1.jpg

and yet further refinements;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3983.jpg

I dropped the handle just a touch while at the same time widening the pinkie cup, and added an additional 1/2 inch or so to boost the size up to comp spec. I changed the swedge, because I'll be tapering the front 4 inches or so of the blade and leaving the rest at full thickness, (1/4")

[Lin Rhea]

Lorien,
I thnk it looks better, but I noticed you changed the curve where the straight part of the cutting edge curves up to the tip. You may have raised the tip slightly as well. Toggle back and forth and you will see it. I like the first blade profile better. Can you see the difference? It's not much, but I have experimented a lot with this very small detail and believe it makes a large difference in it's cutting of some mediums. I'm just suggesting that you may not have noticed this slight change with the new drawing.:) Lin

[jerry fisk]

Lorien, like Lin I noticed the tip raise. In design those little things make a lot of difference sometimes with field use.
Some of this you already know but for the benifit of those that do not know,the more you drop the handle the more power with the swing, the straighter the handle the faster the swing. There is a balance. The same with the tip. A real good example of a fighter is that lower tip. It will cut some things better. A real good slasher type cut benifits from the lower tip, again there is no perfect knife they all will do somethings better than others. The Southwest bowie generally has a higher tip. If I was going to carry one piece only to war it would be with a lower tip. If I am going to cut mostly rope and boards and limbs then I prefer the SW. Just a different take on it.

Once you make it, and it would fun for you to make both tip types and then go out and try them out. I make myself a new large personal field knife each year. It will always vary with what ever I am playing with to learn something different each year, then I sell it as is. This year I am playing with a chisel ground top clip. Nasty cutter. At my little show in Oct I always let the guys cut with whatever piece it is that I am playing with for the year so if they want to they can also learn.
Keep it up

[Lorien Arnold]

Firstly- thank you Lin and Jerry for taking the time to consider this design. Your input is appreciated more than I can say.

I've tweaked the design somewhat and posted it up with the other sketches so that it could be compared more directly with the original. Additionally, I sketched back in the original lines. You guys are totally right, (big surprise there:D) that the smallest changes can make such a large difference.

I also changed the swedge so that it ends more abruptly where the taper starts.
I was thinking that the primary bevel would go up just past the centerline of the knife from the edge, and that I'd do a shallower secondary bevel from there to the swedge and blend it all together for something like an appleseed profile, with the rounded butt of the appleseed comprised of the more angular swedge bevel.
From the swedge to the tip, I'd have a pretty dead flat grind. The edge would be all blended in a convexed manner along its entire length.

One of these days I'd like to get my hands on a knife such as you two have created, I think it would make quite an impression on my design work to actually handle a knife well-made to comp spec. None of the knives I have currently meet this spec, or are made with the particular cutting challenges in mind. Perhaps I will get down to the Big Show next year, and if so, perhaps I could get a chance to handle one of these beasties.

What do you think about the tang design? I was thinking of doing a mortised handle and I have some really nice seasoned/dry cherry and walnut which I could use, and I'd really like to use wood because it's easier and healthier for me to work than something like G10 or whatever. The cherry seems a little denser, but I love the look of walnut.
I'm thinking of corby bolts to hold it all together and I'm wondering if that will be a secure enough fixture. I have quite a bit of JB Weld which I was thinking I'd use, but if you have any suggestions for something that works better, I'm all ears.

Also, you might have noticed that I've drawn in a lanyard hole in the ricasso area. What do you think about that concept? I was thinking I'd chamfer it, and possibly use something like a key chain ring type thing to hold the lanyard in place. I think comp spec calls for the lanyard hole to go through the handle somewhere, would this design contravene the rules?

I am getting more excited about this knife with every passing day, and once I have the design nailed down, I'll get er going. I've got like 3 knives underway all at the same time, but I think this one is going to get the most attention:)

[Lorien Arnold]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/My%20Customs/bush%20bandit/IMG_3968.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/My%20Customs/bush%20bandit/IMG_3969.jpg

[jerry fisk]

On the tang, I would personally make the tang longer. I always go within 1/2" of the back of the handle and most pieces go to within 1/8 inch.
Look at your drawing agin of the handle. See where the back of it drops down were the heel of your hand is and where a person might be putting leverage of even the leverage of the cut itself, right now it is behind the ending of the tang giving it a spot where with the right cut or leverage it could lead to failure. Given that a person never knows for certain in the life what you will face it is better to make it bull tough even if it is inlaid with diamonds. You can never tell that artistic piece might be needed to leverage a door getting out of an earthquake, tornado or used in some type of natural disaster. Thats a good thing about knives, they can be very pretty but still be functional.
Good choices of wood, both are gunstock woods which to me is the basic line up of knife handle woods.
My personal prefernce is the lanyard in the back. I know I go against the current cutting guys but I do not want a loose, sharp, helicopter flying around my hand if it comes loose. Again, thats me, the current cutting guys feel comfortable with it, I am just not going to stand in front of it. lol

[Lorien Arnold]

thanks Jerry, I'll post up a shot of the rework when I draw at it.
It would suck to go to all the trouble and all the hours filing away at this chunk o steel only to have the handle fall apart!
This S30V is surprisingly cooperative though:confused::D

[jerry fisk]

Lorien, you are doing good with the projects. Always good to see someone reaching out past. the S30V holds a good edge or did when Rob and I played with it on the creek bank. If you can bear to part with it you will have a happy client.

[Lorien Arnold]

oh, Jerry- I am in no position to be selling knives my man! Let alone have clients:)
I've only made two knives, and have 2 and a half in the works, (one is a dagger blank Raymond Richard sent, so I'm really just making a handle for that one).
I'm such a rank newb, and have such a limited amount of time to make knives, that I figure I have at least another few years before I would even contemplate selling a knife. Til then they are for me, and my friends and family of course.

Jerry, I added another iteration above with the other sketches, based on your last suggestions. I feel way more comfortable with that design, for a couple reasons;

1. I don't like holes in blades, they could become stress risers, and also your helicopter analogy made me blanch, so I've moved the lanyard to the back and you'll see it goes through the tang

2. the way the tang tapers, even with bolts and epoxy, just looks like it wants to jump out of the handle, so swelling it out adds another layer of security

3. I think the knife will have better balance and a more solid feel with the extra tang meat

I changed the profile very slightly and added a bit more belly up front.

In real life, I'm almost done tapering the one side, then on to side two.

Jerry, did you heat treat your S30V knife or did you send it off? What kind of hardness is recommended for this material, and does it differentially harden and is it wise to do that?

[jerry fisk]

Lorien,, you are digging in on it. I hope you do not mind my pointing things out but you have a good eye, you just are to the point of learning the tweaks.
On the tang. You got the extra length well but when you swelled out it gave you a problem that you were not thinking about. I think your swell is larger than the hole that will be in the tang. Now, if want the swell such as for balance say, there is a way to put a swell on it but it would be a bolt on affair locked up in your bonding agent. I think I would just go for the tapered tang, it would reduce the weight and keep it really strong.
If I was doing the tang, I would make it a bit larger at the front end, keep it bascially paralle for 1/3 of the length then begin a taper it it ending if off at about 1/2 inch wide if possible. Keeping the curve in the center of the handle as you are showing. It just takes awhile. What you are doing on the tang is interesting. The buying public only gets to see the last5% of each step you do on this knife. They see the last brush strokes, the last polish the last bit of tweak of the design etc etc. They cannot see in the handle at all so they have no idea of its design and strength. There is were you come in to play with your intergity. There is a lot of balance, strength performance in that handle design and the centering of the tang. Hang in there with it.You are getting it.

[Lorien Arnold]

this is why it is good to draw out a design before one starts building it:)
Lin reminded me that the handle halves are glued together before the tang is inserted. I was thinking I'd be gluing one side on and then the other:o

I have a long way to go yet!

Jerry, I know what you mean about that last 5%. You are a wise man. I am so fortunate that you and Lin have taken an interest in my development as a knife maker. I'm just so grateful for your interest.

Now, time to go back and review Lin's article on mortised tang construction...

[Lorien Arnold]

what do you think about me keeping the tang shape as is, and inletting only one side of the handle? Get that side all glue up, then nice and flat, then shaped using the sketch as my guide and pin holes drilled. Then I would glue on the other side, trying my best to match the grain from the outset, shape it, drill it and then glue in some pins...

Part of the rationale for that, besides keeping the tang that shape, is to keep the seam off center so that the handle material encases the entire width of the tang. It seems to me I might make for a stronger build, (but not as good looking for sure). I would inlet the palm side of the handle because that's where I imagine the most force would be applied.

[Lin Rhea]

Lorien,
You are doing some thinking about this, that is for sure. I like that. I believe you are right, but to a point. Your right to study the many ways to make a knife sronger and more able to withstand the rigors of chopping. That is what makes a knife stand out, as you well know. But, if there is any question about whether the mortised tang construction method is adequate, I would use another method. Full tang or through tang are both great, if done correctly. For that matter, hidden tang has served me well and I believe would be fine for yours. Just get the fit tight, taper the tang the way Jerry mentioned and it will work. Another thing, if you doubt the wood as a handle material, you might consider something in the G10's or Micarta. Holler if I can help. Lin

[Lorien Arnold]

it occurred to me that I might have come off as a punk, and if so I apologize:o
When guys of your calibre are willing to point things out and make suggestions based on your experience for my benefit, I should just shut up and listen, because I know that you are helping me due to the goodness in your hearts.

I feel that a mortised tang will be sufficiently strong for this knife, and I'm really not interested in breathing in G10 or micarta particles, so wood it will be.

A fellow who thought he'd try his hand at knife making has offered to send me supplies he'd bought for himself in return for me making a sheath for a Lamey knife he's ordered, and with that stuff is some curly maple, so I'll have a few choices of wood to use. So far I'm really like the cherry I have, even with a rough finish, there is some obvious chatoyance.

I would like to oil the handle once it's done, so any advice or links to advice would be really helpful.

Here is the revised tang design;

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/Sketches/IMG_3984.jpg

I just reshaped it, I didn't change anything else. So I think I'm going to be rethinking the pin placement as well. Any suggestions, kind sirs, and I am all ears!
:)

Lin, I'm looking forward to chatting with you again, as I have some good news, (well, almost!) which came up because of our last conversation!:D

[Lin Rhea]

Lorien,
No punks around here. You're doing good. That's why folks like to hear from you and see what you have on your mind. Your drawing looks so much better, to me anyway. I see why you might be concerned about your pin placement, but first try this, raise the back end of the tang 1/16 and lower the middle the same amount, which would serve to straighten it. If the front pin is too close to the top edge of the tang, try widening the tang ever so little throughout the length. By widening it, you give yourself a little leeway when drilling, including the lanyard tube, which is smart to put it in the tang.
I look forward to hearing from you. Lin

[Lorien Arnold]

it was really great talking with you guys today:)

[Lorien Arnold]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/My%20Customs/bush%20bandit/IMG_3993.jpg

memo to self: make sure to measure the material before settling the design.
it's unfortunate the lanyard can't go through the tang, I will make that a standard feature on my next try. Live and learn.

[Lin Rhea]

Lorien,
I guess that's where forging come into play.

One thing you can do is lengthen the tang by hard soldering an extention on it, but another way is to half lap an extention on. I use this method on tangs that fasten to the buttcap, but since your main tang length is ample to get past the fingers, you can half lap a short piece on and let he lanyard tube go through it.

Just take half of the tang material out, sort of a notch, then do the same but opposite hand on the extention piece. Drill a hole though each that, line up, then pin them. You can leave it a little loose and it will swivel, if you need to. Follow me? Lin

[Lorien Arnold]

Lin, I'm picking up what you're putting down:)
I do believe I will proceed based on your recommendation of pinning some more tang on there, as I just don't feel right about the lanyard not passing through steel at least somewhere.

In the meantime, I got TONS done, well, compared to a glacier;)
But at least the taper is filed in and I'm done with the hacksaw. Man, I went through 5 blades with this knife. Since I bought blades from different manufacturers, I have at least a better sense of what constitutes quality when it comes to hacksaw blades.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/My%20Customs/bush%20bandit/IMG_4075.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg44/sookecycle/Bladeworks/My%20Customs/bush%20bandit/IMG_4076.jpg

Stay tuned, within a couple of years, the profile should be filed out:rolleyes::D