Clips, False Edges, Etc

[StephanFowler]

I had a conversation with Steven Garsson a couple years ago that REALLY opened my eyes to the aesthetic properties of a grind line at the spine.

since then I have done several different versions, styles, lengths, etc.

I have heard from some that want the clip sharp, some that don't some that don't care.

I'm kind of curious to hear collectors perspective on the subject.

I'll go find some pictures of clips that I personally find inspiring.

[StephanFowler]

First off one of the CLASSIC fighters, the clip seems like a simple grind but I can assure you it is sublime in it's execution

http://fowlerblades.com/web/wp-content/gallery/inspiration/moran_05.jpg

I have always admired the way Terry does his clips


http://fowlerblades.com/web/wp-content/gallery/inspiration/terryvbowie.jpg


Jason Knight clips are much more aggressive in styling and execution. very very well done

http://fowlerblades.com/web/wp-content/gallery/inspiration/knightfighter.jpg

http://fowlerblades.com/web/wp-content/gallery/inspiration/knight-bowiehunter.jpg


I've not seen many clips by John done this way but I really like how it flows with the overall design

http://fowlerblades.com/web/wp-content/gallery/inspiration/johnsmithfighter.jpg

[Jim Treacy]

Stephan,

I Clipped blades are my favorite style of blade. I tend to like the clip sharpened, but it's not a must.

My favorite knife of the knives that you have shown is the Moran ST-24, since I own it.

Most of my Moran knives have clipped blades.

Here's a Brass wrapped Bowie:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/jjtjr/Moran%20Knives/Moran_02.jpg

A Crown Stag Bowie:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/jjtjr/Moran%20Knives/Moran_01.jpg

A ST-23:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/jjtjr/Moran%20Knives/Moran_03.jpg

Jim Treacy

[Jerry Manuel]

On a long clip like the example of Jason's, I would say no, leave it a false edge . On a short clip, either will work for me . . . Jerry

[David Darom]

Somehow, from the visual point of view, I am taken in by
long clip point blades, especially on Bowies.
I was really impressed by the perfect balance of the 5" clip point
on this Gentleman's Bowie by Larry Fuegen.

Larry does have a great eye for perfection in design and in presenting
correct balance between the various elements in a knife, quite often
coming up with what can be considered true classics.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

http://www.fototime.com/{4465A227-F04E-47C8-A54E-5C8AC5758FA2}/origpict/Fuegen-Preface.jpg

[Roger Pinnock]

I don't have a generalized preference for sharpened / not sharpened - it depends on tha particular piece.

Roger

[Eli Gautreaux]

I'm generally a big fan of clip points, and typically not so fond of spear points and drop points (of course that is an over generalization.)

I like very long clips, sharpened like this one from Jerry Hossom:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/AmericanKopis1.jpg


Not sharpened like this one from Ray Richard:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/TheProphet001.jpg


I love this dramatic and aggresive clip on John Horrigan's hunter bowie:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/Horrigan09San_271.jpg


And the unsharpened clip on this one makes it legal to carry in Texas:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/100_4659.jpg


I don't think I helped you much... I guess I just like clips!

[Kevin Jones]

Clips, can obviously be dramatic design elements for blades and can make or brake a total design of a knife in my opinion. I like various clip conditions/styles and sharpened vs. non-sharpened depending on the specific overall knife design.

Here's a few of my rough drawings showing various blade/clip designs I pondered on when coming up with knives I've had made.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/10456kja/Blade-GuardDesign.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/10456kja/scan0001-3.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/10456kja/RingBowie-Small-1.jpg

[Rob Connally]

I really like a long clip that flows along the top of a blade. The caveat to that statement is that it has to be appropriate to the design of the knife. I am fortunate to have some fine examples from Don Hanson and Kyle Royer.

I was about to say that sharpened or not isn't a big consideration for me but in reviewing my collection I find myself more on the unsharpened/false edge side of the fence. Again, design appropriate still holds here.

I wanted to share a couple of the more extreme examples my wife and I own. The first is a Dan Harrison "Hondo" with a sharp as hell grind north and south on the blade. This is a big knife with a crazy clip. The second is an Elmer Keith design by Dennis Friedly that is built like a tank. The clip is not sharp, it is a really cool knife.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/robconnally/HarrisonHondo.jpg

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/robconnally/056.jpg

[Kevin Jones]

Here's a John Horrigan Bowie (think I would classify it as a vest Bowie) which has a very aggressive clip that I believe fits this piece very well.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/10456kja/Horrigan09San_271.jpg

Edited to add: Sorry, noticed after the fact that Eli had already posted this piece.

[Jerry Manuel]

Rob - that Elmer Keith design made by Dennis looks like not only could it cut a tree but knock it down if need be -
Kevin - nice Horrigan . Is the handle some type of ribbed or maybe fluted wood ? Jerry

[Kevin Jones]

Rob - that Elmer Keith design made by Dennis looks like not only could it cut a tree but knock it down if need be -
Kevin - nice Horrigan . Is the handle some type of ribbed or maybe fluted wood ? Jerry

Yes, Jerry fluted.
And a fine job doing it too, I will add.
Got a good look at this piece in San Antonio this past August.

[Buddy Thomason]

Here's one of the more interesting treatments I've seen:
http://www.fototime.com/7EA88AE7D34AB9C/orig.jpg

Seems like we're talking about clips and false edges and such as if they're nothing more than esthetic design elements. There may be some truth to that in our modern world but it's my understanding (please correct me if I am mistaken) that the 'clip' as we know it was first widely seen in 18th century European hunting knives, many of which approached the length of a short sword. Then, during the 19th century the clip appeared widely on largish English "Bowie" knives imported and sold in America. What the English hunting knife and the Bowie knife have in common is a large potentially heavy blade that can destroy proper balance of the knife unless steel is removed, especially at the tip, to lighten it - thus the "clip-point Bowie" style was born.

So, to sharpen or not sharpen the so-called false edge of the clip is kind of moot. What purpose might be served by a sharpened clip? Some say sharpening the false edge of the clip aids in fleshy penetration - advantageous in a knife fight. I've not found any published evidence to support such a claim. I don't believe it's accurate to equate the penetrating ability of a large blade possessing a sharpened clip with, for example, that of an assassin's dagger.

The clip-point blade style is inherently attractive and has become so popular and recognizable that it routinely appears on knives without any other Bowie-type design elements. I recently saw a Chute knife (maker's designation) with a classic clip-point Bowie blade. I often carry one of Bailey Bradshaw's small fancy folders that unexpectedly features a perfect little clip-point Bowie blade.

[Jerry Manuel]

I sure remember those pieces Buddy . Mr. Bo was still alive then and only 300 were made of this 50th Anniv. model. They all sold pretty quickly in the $375 to $450 range, when issued. Last year I saw 2 sell for $4,000 each -

[Kevin Jones]

So, to sharpen or not sharpen the so-called false edge of the clip is kind of moot. What purpose might be served by a sharpened clip? Some say sharpening the false edge of the clip aids in fleshy penetration - advantageous in a knife fight. I've not found any published evidence to support such a claim. I don't believe it's accurate to equate the penetrating ability of a large blade possessing a sharpened clip with, for example, that of an assassin's dagger.


Wouldn’t a sharpened the top clip, produce less friction/drag during thrust resulting in easier penetration?

Beautiful Randall, thanks for posting it.

[Eli Gautreaux]

All a sharpened clip does for me is allow me to cut myself more frequently during routine knife maintenance :D

Seriously, I'm sure it would help penetration, but I think the bigger issue is to allow for back cuts and slashes...

[Lorien Arnold]

I feel that a sharp clip is impractical for the reasons Eli suggested, but mainly due to the drawing and resheathing. Very difficult to keep a sheath intact when you're dealing with a sharpened clip, trailing point knife

[Buddy Thomason]

Some say sharpening the false edge of the clip aids in fleshy penetration - advantageous in a knife fight. I've not found any published evidence to support such a claim. I don't believe it's accurate to equate the penetrating ability of a large blade possessing a sharpened clip with, for example, that of an assassin's dagger.

You guys got me thinking more about this. I'm no expert and I don't have any definitive answers, but here's what I've learned so far - bowie knives and kitchen knives were compared in a simulated flesh penetration experiment (I found this on a must-have-an-account legal/medical database site) and the results confirmed that sharpness was not a factor for either style knife. The rest of the results weren't conclusive.

I also found some interesting "tests" that weren't very scientifically rigorous, that suggest the most important factor in penetration is the FORCE behind the blade. A somewhat distant second place factor is drag or friction with the biggest offender being bulk, or blade thickness, especially towards the tip. Even a sharp tip is apparently not as big a factor as one might think.

So, hard to know the actual truth, but I was suggesting above that sharpening a clip would have negligible effect on penetration (confirmed by the first study I mentioned). It's back-cut benefit in knife fighting is certainly theoretically possible but wow, I'd hate to be counting on my 'sharpened clip' to give me the "edge" in a knife fight!

I agree about the risk posed by a sharpened clip to self and sheath. On a day to day basis those are the real negatives.

Hope we haven't dragged this interesting thread too far off base.

[Bob Betzner]

For anyone shipping internationally (and to some US states), there is the legal issue of a sharp clip, seen in some jurisdictions more as a dagger-like issue and subject to perhaps greater scrutiny, especially when not well codified.

[Eli Gautreaux]

Lorien, you are right, double edges are harder to sheath, but in my experience, it's the throat area of the primary edge of the sheath that takes the biggest beating upon fast draws. I think that's why most people have gone to kydex for tactical carry (Paul will shank me at the next opportunity for saying that :D)


For anyone shipping internationally (and to some US states), there is the legal issue of a sharp clip, seen in some jurisdictions more as a dagger-like issue and subject to perhaps greater scrutiny, especially when not well codified.


That's definitely an issue for carry here in Texas, sharpened clips (in addition to being hard on leather sheaths) are a no-no legally... And even carrying a technically unsharpened edge on a ground clip can be precarious, and often up to the discretion of the officer.

But I still maintain the argument that a good sharpened clip looks SO nice in the display case :D

[Buddy Thomason]

I still maintain the argument that a good sharpened clip looks SO nice in the display case :D
In spite of my comments above, I totally agree. It's all about the balance between beauty and danger when knife design escapes the strictly utility/tactical boundaries. A sharpened clip ups the voltage on the danger side, while beautiful curves and colors featured elsewhere on a knife up the voltage on the side of beauty. One design challenge can be matching those two voltages in unique and compelling ways capable of turning a nice knife into a gotta-have-it knife.

[Bob Betzner]

In spite of my comments above, I totally agree. It's all about the balance between beauty and danger when knife design escapes the strictly utility/tactical boundaries. A sharpened clip ups the voltage on the danger side, while beautiful curves and colors featured elsewhere on a knife up the voltage on the side of beauty. One design challenge can be matching those two voltages in unique and compelling ways capable of turning a nice knife into a gotta-have-it knife.

Couldn't have been better put at all!

[Joe Mandt]

There are some jurisdictions where a sharpened clip can be problematic. with that said, I have found that unless is is a DEEP clip, it will never be truly "sharp" like the main edge just because of the steep angle. Another little thing that I have discovered is that on a bowie with a curved clip, even if it isn't taken down to a "zero" grind on the clip, the double beveled point will still gouge a big nasty chunk out of anything on a back cut. I have also figured out that the clip is the one part of the knife where simple/primitive technique is mo' betta. After a couple of years of frustration, I now start the clip on the grinder but do the last 30-50% by draw filling. I just can't get everything as even and flat on the KMG.

[jerry fisk]

Talking about clips.
Each year I make myself a personal knife, so marked, that I use for testing something new. The personal knife for this year is a large South West bowie with a chisel ground clip that is set up for a right handed person.
Last month a few of us was testing and cutting with it. We taped a piece of paper to a rope and was just using the clip to slice the paper. Nasty cutting rascal. I will be cutting and playing with it all this year and for those of you who will be at the Micro Show in Oct can cut with it and see what you personally think of it. It is interesting to see the differences.
I do not think a chisel grind primary edge is effective however I really want to test futher and harder this chisel ground clip. I will post up the postives and drawbacks later this year if you want.

[StephanFowler]

Talking about clips.
Each year I make myself a personal knife, so marked, that I use for testing something new. The personal knife for this year is a large South West bowie with a chisel ground clip that is set up for a right handed person.
Last month a few of us was testing and cutting with it. We taped a piece of paper to a rope and was just using the clip to slice the paper. Nasty cutting rascal. I will be cutting and playing with it all this year and for those of you who will be at the Micro Show in Oct can cut with it and see what you personally think of it. It is interesting to see the differences.
I do not think a chisel grind primary edge is effective however I really want to test futher and harder this chisel ground clip. I will post up the postives and drawbacks later this year if you want.

That would be awesome, I always like to explore new styles and techniques, and I've only ever done one chisel grind. it didn't turn out all that great

[Paul Linfield]

All a sharpened clip does for me is allow me to cut myself more frequently during routine knife maintenance :D
...

Sounds familiar! Still, I generally design the knives I want built with an unsharpened swedge/false edge. I don't know that it makes the knife more functional. I just like the look, even on a smaller knife.